Hidden Opponents
Posted by RyftFeb 8
This evening I was surprised to find myself being referenced and commented on at a blog I had never heard of before, Anglican Origins Discussion, and by a person who for some reason chose to not engage my argument here at this site. Instead he chose to email the owner of the blog privately (they are friends), who then published a post about the contention in an article titled “Evil and its problems.”
It seems this friend took issue with my argument that assertions of “gratuitous evil” are illicit, by virtue of being assumptions that beg the question against God. “If there exists a God who is omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent,” I had said, “then there cannot exist gratuitous evil or suffering, for the two are mutually exclusive in the same way that an Irresistible Force and an Immovable Object are.” Against my view, this friend had written the following in response:
It’s the omni-point and gratuitous evil stuff that is sick. Ryft forgets there is a fall and thus there is gratuitous evil. His convenient enthymematic premiss is that God ordained the fall, an admission which would have atheists rejecting Christianity outright.
There are a couple of problems I have with the statements that he made, things that I find a bit troubling as cutting against the biblical grain.
First of all, notice that he simply asserts that “there is gratuitous evil.” No attempt is made to prove biblically that some evils are gratuitous, nor to counter the argument that I had presented. Again, given the very definitions of the terms involved, it follows necessarily that if God is omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent, then it is logically impossible for any evil to be gratuitous (unjustified, purposeless).
And no, there is no need to posit that God “ordained the Fall,” for even if he had not so ordained things, God is nevertheless omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent. That is, even if we grant that God does not know the free choices of man before they are made (as per Open Theism), he knew that Eve was reaching to partake of the forbidden fruit and had the power to do something about it. (Even the Open Theists will confess that God knows what a person is thinking.) But he did not stop her. He knew what she was doing and could have stopped her, but he let both her and Adam fall. Why? It would be my contention that God had a purpose in it, and there is a large host of scriptures that can be called to support that view. Would this friend disagree, and assert that God did not have a purpose in it (gratuitous)? If so, can he produce any scriptures which show that God is ever purposeless? And can he provide a coherent and sound exegesis of all the scriptures that state otherwise (e.g., 2 Kings 19:25; Isaiah 10:6; cf. Amos 3:6)?
As for the classical and orthodox theology of God being omnipotent and omniscient, he dismisses it with a wave of his hand as being “sick,” which presents itself as a wholly inadequate response. Throughout the centuries of church history, the catholic faith has regarded these attributes as theological orthodoxy across every tradition, from Catholic to Eastern Orthodox to Protestant. In every age theologians have treated the doctrines as a ‘given’, that is, something which is so obvious in the scriptures as to be commonly received. That is, until about the end of the 20th century when the likes of Pinnock, Hasker, Boyd, Sanders, etc., introduced Open Theism. If this friend wishes to deny that God is omniscient and omnipotent, more than just a wave of his hand will be required of him by those who search the scriptures for truths about God.
And finally, atheists already reject Christianity outright. While it is true that pressing upon them the penetrating reach of God’s nature, the implications of his holiness, the lost condition of man in his sinfulness, the exclusive and sovereign jurisdiction of God over all things, man’s inescapable moral culpability to God, etc., will certainly enflame their anger and enmity to God, that is by no means an argument to hold back on such vital truths, ever, which we are commanded to preach unto all the world. As servants of our Lord and Savior, our allegiance is to him—and him alone. We owe to unbelievers nothing but the debt of love—and even that is not for the unbeliever’s sake, but for the sake of Christ and the glory of God. Our faithful commitment is to God in Christ alone, and that covenant relationship we must never allow any man to come between.
As Horatius Bonar put the matter,
For we know that the unrenewed will is set against the Gospel; it is enmity to God and His truth. The more closely and clearly truth is set before it and pressed home upon it, its hatred swells and rises. … It is the Gospel that he hates; the more clearly it is set before him, he hates it the more. It is God that he hates; the more vividly God is set before him, the more does his enmity awaken and augment. … How, then, is this resistance to be over-come, this opposition made to give way? How is the bent of the will to be so altered as to receive that which it rejected? Plainly by his will coming in contact with a Superior one, a will that can remove the resistance … The will itself must undergo a change before it can choose that which it rejected. And what can change it but the finger of God?




13 comments
Comment by Mathew on 9 Feb 2010 at 03:45
Here's the gig: the angels rock up before God to list the events of the day, then Satan waltzes in, unimpeded, and stands with his arms folded in the corner, wearing a smug, cynical smile.
“Where have you been, Satan?” asks God – like he doesn't already know.
“Oh, you know – out and about. Nice place, that Earth,” he replies.
“Way nicer than that other place I had to make,” God replies. “And when you were out, you saw my servant Job? Isn't he rightfully fearful of me – a one of a kind guy?”
Satan snorts. “Ha! How can he be any different? Nothing rotten befalls him. You bless him with prosperity, a large family of sons and a lifetime of burger meat and chops.” Satan pauses a moment, then says, “Y'know, if you would just smite him a smidgeon, I reckon he'd change his tune, so much so that you would think highly of him no longer.”
“Very well,” smiles God. “Go and destroy all he has and cause him whatever grief seems good to you, but do not kill him. Here's a pass for the day – show it to Gabriel on your way out.”
Satan takes the pass from God that authorizes him to wreak havoc on the Lord's servant, Job. As Satan turns to leave, some of the angles could hear God say, like he already knew it, “… but I think you'll find he remains true.”
Job 1:6-12
Yep – sounds like God let the pitbull out on “poor old” Job, for a reason. I wonder if God is shrewd enough to have had a reason to permit the fall, too? After all, Satan is on God's leash.
Comment by Ryft Braeloch on 9 Feb 2010 at 10:59
Indeed. And consider Job 42:11, “All his brothers and sisters and everyone who had known him before came and ate with him in his house. They comforted and consoled him over all the trouble the LORD had brought upon him, and each one gave him a piece of silver and a gold ring.”
Comment by Duane on 9 Feb 2010 at 16:34
I hadn't thought of this until you mentioned it in your post so I'm just tossing it out for you to chew on really. Do you think it'd be fair to say that Eve had already sinned in her heart once she decided to partake of the fruit? In other words, stopping Eve from taking the fruit would not have prevented sin anyway, as Eve's decision already brought it about.
I know the commandment says “you shall not eat…”, but I guess I am applying this in the same way that Jesus applied the commandments about murder and adultery.
Therefore it would not be the action requiring prevention, as much as the thought itself, if the fall was to be prevented.
If this follows through, under Open Theism then, it would have been virtually impossible to prevent the fall.
What do you think?
Comment by allenjs on 9 Feb 2010 at 17:17
As my pastor always says, “Christ dying on the cross was not 'Plan B'”
The cross was not some emergency plan enacted upon the unforeseen failure of the original plan.
Comment by Mathew on 9 Feb 2010 at 21:44
That's a great soundbite.
Comment by bondChristian on 11 Feb 2010 at 01:22
Like all good discussions, it sounds to me like the problem is with your definitions of “gratuitous.” According to your definition, nothing's gratuitous. And in a way, I certainly agree.
But from the other side, gratuitous must – or at least it seems to – denote something. When sin entered the world, suddenly it wasn't perfect. Anything imperfect would be gratuitous for a perfect God. At least in a sense.
In other words, I see both sides. On one side, God had a perfect plan for sin. But on the other, He doesn't command us to sin (that doesn't even make sense).
-Marshall Jones Jr.
Comment by Rene Mulder on 15 Feb 2010 at 15:53
I was wondering though, if the existence of gratuitous evil is supposed to mean there is no God, does that mean that the existence of gratuitous good means there is no Satan?
It seems to me that the problem is not the definition of gratuitous, but rather the problem is the definition of Evil.
For the disucssion to work, wouldn't Evil need to be properly defined within the Biblical framework as well? And if so, is “small children dying of hunger or by natural disaster” really a matter of Evil or does it fall under cause and effect (which God's creation is brilliantly covered in)? I.e children could die of hunger because of corruption in a country, resulting in unequal distribution of sources, which in itself sounds more Evil.
The way I see it, there is (the direct act of) God, there is (the direct act of) Satan, and there is the (direct and indirect) effects of our choices for or against God, which may or may not effect people around us as well.
We are also supposed to take responsibility for our actions. God intervering with that would strip us of our responsibility (and ultimately make Jesus' sacrifice unnecesary).
Finally, God is still a righteous God, we can trust Him to be righteous in His judgment. We need not worry over things that some might perceive as 'pointless evil'.
PS: forgive me if my comment missed the point of the entry. I tend to speak what comes to me, and sometimes miss important points and need to think more before writing :)
Comment by bondChristian on 15 Feb 2010 at 19:57
Yeah, I can agree with that. I think the only thing I'd change is the mention of Satan in certain areas. While I think he does have control in some areas, I think it can seem a bit misleading to characterize Satan as God's opposite. I don't think Satan is to evil what God is to good.
I don't think you necessarily meant that – I just thought I'd through out the distinction. Good points though.
-Marshall Jones Jr.
Comment by Mathew on 15 Feb 2010 at 20:28
Christianity abhors the notion that Satan is the equal to or the opposite of God – there is no room for a Yin Yang of good and evil in Christian doctrine. How can there be? God, as author and creator of all things, has, by definition, no equal and God is the only standard for what is Good.
It's important to note that Good can exist without Evil, but that Good is a necessary requirement in order for Evil to exist at all. Evil is not the opposite of Good, nor equal to it. It is a perversion, a parasite that cannot survive without leeching off of its host.
Comment by Adam on 15 Feb 2010 at 23:25
I've always liked the definition of evil being the absence of good. Just like dark is the absence of light and cold is the absence of heat.
Comment by Ryft Braeloch on 16 Feb 2010 at 02:04
When it comes to Problem of Evil arguments (there a few different versions), the intent is to prove that “it’s unlikely the Christian God exists because (a) gratuitous evil exists and (b) that runs contrary to God as defined in Christianity.” But the real ‘problem’ is that all such arguments actually fail (for very subtle reasons that, when flushed out, prove to be embarrassingly basic). I’m currently working on a series devoted to looking at this particular species of arguments against the existence of God, the first of which I hope to have published this week. (I was supposed to have it up by last Saturday but ended up getting swamped by real life demands.) Hopefully you and others will come away with a better understanding of not only what Problem of Evil arguments try to prove but also why the true and living God stands impervious to the attacks.
Not once in my experiences have I ever heard someone propose a Problem of Goodness argument against the existence of Satan. When it comes to unbelievers, their energies are invested in arguing against God; it is the clear knowledge of God they constantly combat and try to suppress. The more arguments they develop against God and the louder they target him for their rants, the more they prove the inspired words of the apostle Paul in the first chapter of Romans.
It all depends on what the argument is aiming to do. In most cases, a Problem of Evil argument proposes that what the Bible teaches about God and evil is inconsistent with how the world really is; in other words, given the probability of gratuitous evil, God as revealed in the Bible is unlikely to exist. Insofar as they argue this way, then the terms ‘God’ and ‘evil’ must correspond to the biblical witness, yes.
That’s a nuanced question, getting at the heart of how evil is understood in the Bible. When it comes to morality, no action is ever sinful in and of itself. It is always the intention that counts as sin. If it was true that actions are sinful in themselves, then God would be guilty of sin. For example, if the action of selling Joseph into slavery was in itself a sin, then God would be just as guilty of sin as his brothers, for both God and Joseph’s brothers were involved in that action. But it is not the act itself that is a sin, but rather the intention of the agent. For the brothers it was a sin, because by it they meant to harm him; for God it was not a sin, because by it he meant to save countless lives. (Genesis 45:4-8; cf. Genesis 50:15-21.) So, was selling Joseph into slavery really a matter of Evil? Depends on the agents responsible and their intent.
Consider also Sennacherib, the Assyrian king, how the sovereign hand of God wielded him as an instrument of his just wrath and yet, nevertheless, he punished the king for his sins. It was not about ‘what’ Sennacherib did but rather ‘why’ he did it. They were both involved in that action; God planned it and brought it to pass, but the king also planned it and brought it to pass. Yet while God’s intent was righteous judgment, the king’s intent was sinful pride. (Isaiah 10:5-16; cf. 2 Kings 19:22-28) So, are violent sieges against cities really a matter of Evil? Depends on the agents responsible and their intent.
What about torturing and crucifying the Son of God? Is that really a matter of Evil? God planned it and brought it to pass, in as much as certain leaders and rulers had. The question depends on the agents responsible and their intent.
Contemplate a thought experiment. You have two people, Smith and Jones. Smith sees a homeless person on the side of the road and buys him a sandwich to eat. The next day Jones sees that same homeless person and likewise buys him a sandwich. Both cases are exactly the same action. According to what the Bible tells us about morality, was that good or sin? Seems a bit difficult to answer, yes?
Suppose I were to tell you that Smith is someone with a seething hatred for anything to do with God and his authority, that he is an avowed atheist whose action was guided by his God-defying commitment to secular humanism. And suppose also that Jones has an overwhelming love for God, that he is a committed follower of Christ whose action was guided by his God-revering commitment to glorify God in all things. Does the moral question become easier to answer? Notice that the action didn’t change. In both cases it was identical. The only change was discovering the intent of the agent involved.
Moral culpability arises not from ‘what’ we do but ‘why’ we do it. Adam and Eve fell in the garden not because they ate some fruit, but rather why they ate it.
Forgiveness is unnecessary. Sometimes a tangent can raise a point more valuable than the one being examined in the post. Your thoughts are more than welcomed.
Comment by Ryft Braeloch on 16 Feb 2010 at 02:34
Sorry, Duane, I had totally missed this. My bad.
To Open Theists I tend to posit the following question: If the fall of Adam and Eve was truly against God’s will, if indeed God had no ordained purpose for sin appearing in his creation, then why did he plant a forbidden tree in the garden at all? It would not have been impossible to prevent the fall: place them in paradise with no forbidden tree.
There are some who have replied, “God didn’t know they would eat of it.” But such a reply seems to miss the whole point, doesn’t it? They cannot eat the forbidden fruit if there is no forbidden tree to pick from. But there was. Ergo: “Why?”
Comment by Rene Mulder on 16 Feb 2010 at 14:51
That's a good point! Indeed I didn't mean to suggest that Satan is God's opposite, but I can see how my initial comment could give that idea.
Thanks for pointing this out :)
Mathew adds a good point as well.
Satan seems more like a prosecutor/lying, stealing, breaking, word-twisting kinda guy anyway, and did actually serve some purpose in God's army before his fall, rather than being God's exact opposite to begin with.