So I recently discovered some interesting corners of a web site I was aware of but never really explored before—Reddit.com. And I may have continued in my ignorance about this site, except that one of my various alerts told me that someone there had directed attention to the Aristophrenium. After I checked it out—someone pointing atheists to an article of mine and some colourful commentary following—I was intrigued to find out what other type of sections the site had besides Atheism.

One section that caught my interest (for the time being) is DebateAChristian, and one of the threads I chose to engage was titled, “More un-Christian advice from the word of God” by a gentleman we might safely assume is not a believer who presented what he considered a challenge for Christianity. He cited 2 John 1:9-11 and then contrasted it against Luke 5:29-32, following it with his challenging question, “How are we supposed to call sinners to repentance if we cannot welcome them?”

What follows is the brief conversation between Basilides and myself. (To be updated as the conversation progresses, so check back.)

Last Update: 24 August 2010, 12:45 AM.

Ryft:

We call sinners to repentance by going out to where they fellowship. That does not necessitate bringing them in to where we fellowship. (In other words, inside the church is for edification of believers, outside the church is for evangelization of unbelievers. We are called to go out into the world and share the gospel.)

Basilides:

So sinners are not welcome in Church [2 John 1:9-11].

Ryft:

Incorrect. If sinners were not welcome in church, then every church would be empty, “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” That means all people are sinners in need of a Savior—including believers. The difference is that those who repent and trust in Christ are sinners who are saved by him.

Sinners are absolutely welcome in church. What is not welcome in church are unrepentant sinners who neither teach nor abide in the doctrines of Christ and presume to lead or instruct those in the church with their false teachings. As it is also said elsewhere, “Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. [...] If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!”

Basilides:

If sinners were not welcome in church, then every church would be empty…

Will you make up your mind? In your last post you insisted…

We call sinners to repentance by going out to where they fellowship. That does not necessitate bringing them in to where we fellowship. (In other words, inside the church is for edification of believers, outside the church is for evangelization of unbelievers.

What is not welcome in church are unrepentant sinners who neither teach nor abide in the doctrines of Christ and presume to lead or instruct those in the church with their false teachings.

That would be any “sinner” (and anyone who’s Christianity you fundamentally disagree with) who dared to make his opinion known in the church.

Ryft:

Will you make up your mind?

As if I need to. Your original question was, “How are we supposed to call sinners to repentance if we cannot welcome them?” And I answered by pointing out the non-existence of this obstacle you’ve imagined. First, how we’re supposed to call sinners to repentance is by going out to them. That answered your question directly. Second, that does not necessitate bringing them in to where we fellowship. Please notice that word “necessitate,” for I used it on purpose (i.e., it’s not as though we’re prevented from calling sinners to repentance if we cannot welcome them). That is, I answered your question from both angles.

Then you asked the follow-up question about sinners being unwelcome in the church, pointing at 2 John 1:9-11 again. So I answered by showing that this passage is not referring to sinners qua sinners (i.e., it does not make the point you want it to), explaining who that passage is talking about (verse 9): unrepentant sinners who neither teach nor abide in the doctrines of Christ and presume to lead or instruct those in the church with their false teachings. (I could cite the Greek text, the indicative mood, etc., but I presumed such textual mechanics were unnecessary.) Then I also demonstrated that verse 10 is consistent with this point by referring to the Galatian epistle where Paul presented them with the same warning John is giving here. This exegesis is supported and consistent (with itself, the context, the text overall, and with other Scriptures).

That would be any ‘sinner’ [...] who dared to make his opinion known in the church.

That conclusion can follow only by completely ignoring my answer and the passage itself. It is not about expressing an opinion, but about leading or instructing (cf. John 10:4, 3 John 1:9; same Greek usage). The question you had asked is answered. Q.E.D.

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