Justin, a young man from Canada, started a brand new blog called Consider Atheism. Although I don’t remember how I stumbled upon his blog, it has garnered my interest for two reasons: he is Canadian and purports to defend Atheism. (And there is also the fact that he is young, which means he is still teachable.)

One of the first posts to elicit a response from me regarded the Problem of Evil (which most people know is my favourite subject). The following is the sum of our discussion.

~*~

Justin (18 June 2010)

This will be my first of many posts on this argument. I believe it to be the strongest argument in support of atheism. If you are unfamiliar with it, allow me to explain it as simply as I can.

The POE is basically asserting that evil should not be able to exist if a God is all loving. I am not convinced by an argument right off the bat, so I did look into it for a fair bit of time. I came to my own conclusion: if objective moral values exist, then God exists. If evil exists, then God created it. I believe that creating evil itself is the worst sin of all. It is concluded that God is not able to sin, because sinning would be falling short of a perfect act. So if we are able to conclude that creating evil itself is the worst sin(or any type of sin), then God would not have been able to create it. Since he is falling short of a perfect act. This can be explain in a syllogism that I formulated:

P1: If evil exists, then God created it.

P2: By simple assertion,  it is at the very least considered a sin.

P3: God cannot sin.

C: Following premises 1-3, God cannot create objective moral values since this would include making evil.

This is the conclusion I have come to after considering this argument. Perhaps if this seems fallacious, I will change my mind. But for the time being, it is my stance and the main reason why I believe atheism to be true. If you think you can prove it false, then feel free to comment. I’m always open to consideration.

~*~

Ryft (1 July 2010)

(I am responding from the Christian view.)

If objective moral values exist, then God exists.

This warrants no serious objection, so it can stand.

If evil exists, then God created it.

This, however, does warrant serious objection.

First, ‘evil’ is not an ontological term; it is not a thing to be created. If moral order is grounded in the nature of God and expressed prescriptively in his commands, then ‘evil’ is a relational term—i.e., the moral value of p is determined by p’s relationship to the nature and will of God (e.g., malevolence is evil because it is contrary to the nature of God, or idolatry is evil because it is contrary to the will of God).

Second—and consequently—God did not create evil; he created free agents who committed evil (e.g., blasphemed against the nature of God and rebelled against the will of God). The agents God created were perfect, but they did not remain perfect.

I believe that creating evil itself is the worst sin of all.

Therefore, this no longer follows (since evil is not a thing to be created).

It is concluded that God is not able to sin, because sinning would be falling short of a perfect act.

God is not able to sin by definition. In other words, given how sin is defined, the nature and will of God is not able to be contrary to the nature and will of God. Think law of non-contradiction; i.e., “God is not able to sin” because x cannot be ¬x at the same time and in the same respect (e.g., God cannot command something he does not command).

So if we are able to conclude that creating evil itself is the worst sin…

Therefore, the rest of the argument no longer follows.

~*~

Justin (1 July 2010)

I think you are misunderstanding what I am proposing.

God did not create evil; he created free agents who committed evil.

Just to clarify a little more on my argument, evil is not able to be committed if it didn’t even exist in the first place; which is something that you even have yet to prove. However, for the sake of argument, I will accept that evil does exist. This also leaves problems. I do not see how evil can exist in the physical world if it was not first created. When God created the universe, he created matter, the laws of logic, and everything that is material of immaterial around us. Even if it is grounded in His nature, that still leaves problems. Does that mean that objective moral values existed before the universe? This is just nonsensical.

Therefore, this no longer follows (since evil is not a thing to be created).

Like I stated, evil needs to be created for God to make it exist in the actual world. Even if it is grounded in his nature, it would still have to be created to apply to our universe. Else evil itself would not apply to our setting of life.

~*~

Ryft (1 July 2010)

Evil is not able to be committed if it didn’t even exist in the first place.

This simply does not follow—at least on the Christian view, where evil is not an ontological term. I suppose it might follow on some other view which sees evil as a created thing having an ontological state; but then your critique would address a view different from what Christianity posits, which stands unchallenged.

And the Christian view is that, since objective moral order is grounded in the nature of God and expressed prescriptively in his commands, ‘evil’ is a relational term, such that the moral value of p (e.g., “P is evil”) is determined by p’s relationship to the nature and will of God. Moral terms are different from ontological terms; i.e., ‘God’ is an ontological term, whereas ‘good’ and ‘evil’ are moral terms. What this means for your argument—if it wishes to address the Christian view—is that evil is committed when something is contrary to the nature and will of God (and, conversely, good is committed when something corresponds to the nature and will of God). In other words, evil is able to be committed because an objective moral order exists in the first place, God. (Remember your first premise.)

I do not see how evil can exist in the physical world if it was not first created.

Perhaps you do now. I shall wait for your response to find out, but evil can exist in the physical world because things in the physical world can be contrary to the nature and will of God (e.g., malevolence, idolatry, rape, etc.). Evil—a moral valuation—does not exist ‘in itself’ (Latin: per se) but rather by virtue of being contrary to God; ‘evil’ is a moral term, not an ontological one.

When God created the universe, he created matter, the laws of logic, and everything that is material of immaterial around us.

A slight correction here. Neither the laws of logic nor morality were created by God. They are grounded in the very nature of God, who exists eternally. While it is true that God created the entire universe and everything in it, the attributes or properties of his nature were not part of that creation; with regard to his being, God is who he is eternally.

Does that mean that objective moral values existed before the universe? This is just nonsensical.

First, to dismiss something as nonsensical without demonstration commits the argumentum ad lapidem fallacy. The rational person (which I assume you are) is concerned with avoiding invalid argumentation. Second, objective moral order is grounded in the nature and will of God, who exists eternally (i.e., “before the universe”). Keep in mind that both your argument and our discussion here is addressing metaethics (what morality is), not ethics (what is moral).

~*~

Justin (3 July 2010)

I will concede for now, but I will make a blog post in the future addressing these points. I need to start writing blogs instead of replying to comments.

Thanks.

Other related Aristophrenium articles: