Another atheist faceplant
Posted by RyftJul 20
Over at a blog called An Atheist Debater is an author who attempted to tackle what he thoughtfully considers to be “one of the most useless and easily refutable” arguments for the existence of God: the Argument from Design. According to this gentleman, the teleological argument “is so ridiculously fallacious it’s laughable.” What I intend to explore here are two things. First, did he succeed at proving it commits a fallacy? And second, did his own argument commit a fallacy?
To begin, let us examine the argument as he recounts it. (His email address indicates his name as “C.R. Gordon.” Therefore, in this article we shall call him Mr. Gordon and his initial participant Ms. Christian.)
Ms. Christian: The complexity of the human brain is more than a computer. If the computer is designed, how can the brain not be designed?
Mr. Gordon: If you continue this line of questioning, we’ll arrive at the same place again: Who designed the Designer?
Ms. Christian: No one designed God. He was always there.
Mr. Gordon: If it’s okay to assume that God was always there and needed no designer, it’s okay to assume that the universe was always there and needed no designer.
Ms. Christian: How?
Mr. Gordon: Well let me ask a few questions. Would you say that in order to create the universe God must have been equally or more complex?
Ms. Christian: More.
Mr. Gordon: Which would look more designed to you: a lump of clay, or a perfect ball of clay?
Ms. Christian: A ball.
Mr. Gordon: Then comparatively it is harder to make the assumption that God (the perfect ball) did not have a designer since he is more complex. It is easier to assume that the universe (the lump) did not have a designer since it is less complex. This is your own logic.
Ms. Christian: I don’t know. Maybe this wasn’t the best argument.
Gordon said that in a subsequent conversation the young lady retracted her comment and “now insists that the above was a good argument” and that she wanted Gordon’s readers to be made aware of that. “Some people never learn,” he sighed.
Did he succeed at proving it commits a fallacy?
Did Gordon succeed at proving that her argument commits a fallacy? On the surface it seems not, for he does not specifically identify any. However, from his responses to her we can infer that he was probably indicating a Special Pleading fallacy—such that she was trying to except God from the rule without an appropriate justification for the exception. In a fashion similar to that of Dawkins in The God Delusion (and that may very well be where he got it from), it seems that Gordon is arguing that if a complex universe requires a Designer then surely that Designer himself requires a designer, since he is far more complex than the universe.
So now we can ask the question. Did Ms. Christian commit the Special Pleading fallacy? Certainly not, for she actually did present an appropriate justification for excepting God from the rule—namely, her point that God “was always there,” that he is eternal, without beginning or end. For anyone to inquire about the beginning of some x, such a question carries the assumption that x had a beginning to inquire about. However, an eternal being has no such beginning. Ergo, it is a relevant and appropriate exception.
Regardless of whether or not there exists a better explanation for the appearance of design that we find—a claim that shoulders its own burden of proof—the reader must keep in mind Gordon claimed that the design argument is fallacious, which is quite a different matter. Since the Christian is presenting a characteristic that is a relevant exception to the rule, there is no special pleading taking place. Ergo, Gordon did not succeed at proving it commits a fallacy.
Did his own argument commit a fallacy?
What about Gordon’s argument itself? Ironically, it does commit a fallacy. And not to put too fine a point on the matter, it actually commits two different fallacies.
First, he commits the Loaded Question fallacy. The standard atheist response tends to be, “Well who designed the Designer?” which consists of two separate questions. The popular example used to illustrate a loaded question fallacy is, “Have you stopped beating your spouse?” Notice the two questions being asked: (1) “Do you beat your spouse?” and (2) “If so, have you stopped?” The second question is the essential one being asked; but it is a meaningless question without first presupposing an affirmative response to the first one, which by clever sophistry is veiled from the respondent. The question coerces the person into conceding spousal abuse.
The same analysis applies to the question Gordon asked. There are really two questions lurking within it: (1) “Is the Designer himself designed?” and (2) “If so, who designed him?” Once again, the second question is the essential one being asked; however, it is a meaningless question without first presupposing an affirmative response to the first one, which is veiled from the respondent. It is a clever sophistry that attempts coerce the Christian into conceding that God had a designer, and is thus question-begging.
Second, he also commits the fallacy of Faulty Analogy. “If it is okay to assume that God was always there and needed no designer,” he said, “then it is okay to assume that the universe was always there and needed no designer.” The reason why it commits the Faulty Analogy fallacy is because there is precisely zero similarity between the nature of God and the nature of the universe (cf. “extreme dissimilarity”). In virtue of it being a fallacy, the comparison is logically bankrupt and may be dismissed. (Moreover, it is not okay to assume the universe was always there because there is a vast wealth of scientific data that counts against such an assumption.)
But Gordon asked another question to Ms. Christian pertinent to our analysis here and deserving some attention: “Would you say that in order to create the universe God must have been equally or more complex?” he asked. Notwithstanding Ms. Christian’s naïve response, the answer is, “Neither” (for God is not complex under any recognized definition of the term; see the Thomistic explications on the nature and meaning of divine simplicity, that God does not consist of interconnected parts). In order to make a complexity argument, one has to assume a deity that is unrecognizable to Christian theism and, therefore, fails to count against it (see Straw Man fallacy).
And then he responds
Three hours later, Gordon had responded to me, as follows:
It’s important to keep in mind that every argument from design is unique to the individual making it. While you may claim to present a sound argument, hers was not, in any sense of the word, sound.
1. There are two entities which are in discussion: the universe, and a ‘god’. This particular theist claimed that the existence of the universe required or implied an outside Designer. Perhaps a more apt question (in light of your approach) is to ask if the Designer is free from this rule of entities requiring designers. If the answer is yes, the next question is, “Why?” And the next, “How do you know this?” Which ties into…
2. You have no problem accepting the idea that the universe requires an architect, yet you fail to reapply this principle to the architect itself. You claim that a god would be exempt from such a principle based on the dissimilarity of their ‘natures’. Well, again, “How do you know this? And what is the evidence for it?” Are you making judgments of when rules apply and when they do not for the preservation of parsimony; to avoid a chain of architects? And finally,
3. Remember, each argument is different. I gave her the option of accepting some choices but she did not have to. She was the one who labeled God more complex, not me. Thus, I was in my right to point out the flaw of such an assumption.
The ability to cite a few articles is nice and all, but your argument is not advanced when you must rely on a hypothetical conception of what ‘God’ is. Most everyone has a unique conception of God. You cannot negate the fallacies of an argument based on one definition of God, with your own definition of God. It’s like trying to point out the flaws of your imaginary friend based on my perception of your imaginary friend. Until a complete, structured, and supported definition of God is accepted unanimously, you have no basis to reject or assert any definition.
So how does this response hold up under critical evaluation? Not very well, I’m afraid. It would seem that Gordon missed the whole thrust of my original critique, for he is repeating very similar argumentation. Let’s have a closer look.
Who designed the Designer?
Whether or not Ms. Christian’s answers were philosophically robust is a rather moot point, for it can be observed that Gordon committed the Loaded Question fallacy well before she answers that God is ‘more’ complex than the universe. And since his entire line of reasoning was predicated on that fallacy, the whole lot can be dismissed straight out. She felt that her argument was solid; logically bankrupt counter-arguments are not any kind of challenge against it. Regardless of his clear opinion of her argument, at least hers did not commit such basic errors in reasoning.
If he esteems critical thinking—and I shall assume that he does—then he must abandon his bankrupt question and reframe his counter-argument anew, this time working to avoid bad reasoning. A commitment to critical thinking would force him to break the Loaded Question up and ask its component questions separately and in order. As I had pointed out previously, “Who designed the Designer?” is a complex of two separate questions: (1) “Is the Designer himself designed?” and (2) “If so, who designed him?” The fallacy inheres because the first question is begged; i.e., asking who designed the Designer assumes that he was designed at all—the way that “Have you stopped beating your spouse?” assumes you were beating her at all. Using clever sophistry to force the Christian into conceding that God had a designer invalidly begs the question.
The answer to the suppressed first question dictates the relevance of the second. And since the answer to the first question is, “No, the Designer is not himself designed,” the second question is altogether irrelevant and a different one must be asked instead, as Gordon’s response to me implied (e.g., “If not, why not?”). And the answer of course is because God is not complex. Even under the definition Dawkins provided in The Blind Watchmaker, God is not complex, as Plantinga indicated, for God does not have parts arranged in ways unlikely to have arisen by chance; that is, (1) God is not materially composed, and hence has no parts, and (2) God is eternal, and hence has no beginning about which one can inquire. But neither point can be claimed for the universe.
(And although Ms. Christian said God is ‘more complex’ than the universe, I would be inclined to attribute that to her being unfamiliar with or naïve about the finer points of Christian theology and philosophical argumentation. If Gordon wishes to dismiss the teleological argument, he would do well to engage the strongest formulations of the argument, not the weakest.)
How do you know?
The issue raised by the teleological argument, and the logically bankrupt riposte from atheists about who designed the Designer, regards the philosophical category known as metaphysics. And questions about how a person knows one thing or another regards the philosophical category known as epistemology. Gordon needs to understand that they are two very different categories entirely, and that it is fundamentally a categorical error to confront a metaphysical argument with an epistemological objection. If he does not have a logically valid counter-argument on the metaphysics, then the original argument stands unrefuted (and categorical errors cannot help him).
If he does have a categorically relevant counter-argument, then it would be prudent for him to submit it because his readers, I suspect, would be rather interested in seeing such a thing—as would I and our readers.
Miscellaneous clean up
As for the other points Gordon raised, they can likewise be dismissed as irrelevant. For example, the claim that there are other proposed gods is completely irrelevant to a critical evaluation of the Christian proposition. Whether or not his counter-argument works for some other proposed god does nothing to change the fact that it committed the indicated fallacies when confronting the God of the Bible. If he wants to leave the God of the Bible unchallenged for the sake of defeating these other gods, I am sure that Christians will not mind at all. And finally, I need to have “a complete, structured, and supported definition of God [that] is accepted unanimously” only if I want to argue that a particular definition of God is unanimously accepted—which is an argument I am not at all invested in, for the notion of “a complete, structured, and supported definition” of anything that is “accepted unanimously” is arbitrary and delusional.





14 comments
Comment by Adam on 20 Jul 2010 at 23:36
Good one. It amazes me sometimes how well you are able to recognise and expose all the fallacies in an opponents argument. That is definitely a skill that I (and all Christians) need to develop.
Comment by fr0d0 on 21 Jul 2010 at 04:45
Brilliantly crafted argument Ryft.
Comment by Actual Logician on 18 Aug 2010 at 19:13
All arguments are subject to epistemological scrutiny. No argument that fails to stand up to epistemic scrutiny can be regarded as sound. The reverse is not true, you cannot respond to a epistemic fault by further reference to metaphysics or ontology, but any and all claims must have epistemic legs to stand on. If I say "The reason why the grass is green is because the sky is blue and the sun is yellow," you have every right to ask how I know that. You have committed the faulty analogy, epistemological questions have special precedence.
Ms. Christian did not do anything to show that the universe and this god are categorically different. Even if his epistemic query was irrelevant, neither she nor you have provided a metaphysical argument for this point. There is no reason why the universe cannot itself be eternal in the same way that God is. If something can be eternal, why can't the universe be so? You cannot simply state that it cannot, you have to answer the epistemological question. How do you know?
The loaded question used was illustrative and not argumentative. It is disingenuous to claim that it was a structural part of his argument. It is quite clear that he was being rhetorical.
Comment by Pete on 18 Aug 2010 at 19:40
So, you take random posts from the internet. 'Dissect' them by pointing out all the fallacies. Give the authors no chance to respond. Then gloat in self satisifaction as you can laugh at all the stupid atheists. "Huur huur" indeed. Afun way to spend ones time I imagine.
Perhaps though, instead of selecting some random person you trawl the internet looking for you could tackle an argument by an actual scholar or philosopher arguing for atheism? Just a thought, but I suppose that would be difficult. So enjoy picking up on random people to hate instead.
Comment by Sam on 18 Aug 2010 at 21:10
The best reason to dismiss the argument from design is that it's needlessly complicated, as we know of another process by which complexity can arise naturally: evolution. Why muddle the explanation for these things with an untestable phenomenon, when a simpler mechanism can achieve the same ends?
Comment by Ryft on 18 Aug 2010 at 23:26
Obviously you didn't click the link. If you had done so, you would have seen that the author had a chance to respond—since the conversation between myself and him took place at his blog almost a year prior to my publishing about it here. It boggles the mind how you could fail to grasp the meaning of, "Three hours later, Gordon had responded to me." Embarrassing yourself with this supercilious ignorance provided tremendous entertainment value. That was awesome. Thank you.
Comment by Duane on 19 Aug 2010 at 05:27
Sam,
First, there is nothing inherently complicated (and therefore, certainly not "needlessly complicated") in concluding that designs have designers.
Second, your assertion that evolution provides a simpler and natural explanation for design is based on an unfounded assumption concerning the supposed power of evolution to do anything of the sort. Suggesting that evolution (blind natural processes) is a more sensible explanation for design in living things is like suggesting that a more sensible explanation for the apparent design of a house is the result of an explosion in a brick factory. It does not follow that merely having a natural explanation for an objects' origin is to have the best possible explanation. And you've certainly not done so on this occasion.
Comment by Sam on 22 Aug 2010 at 13:15
Duane,
It is indeed complicated to propose a designer as an explanation for a phenomenon, when there is an alternative explanation that works exceedingly well without one. This is Occam's razor. Your analogy is faulty, and shows a misunderstanding of evolution. Houses can't reproduce, nor do they have a metabolism. They needn't compete with each other for resources to produce a new generation of baby houses. Therefore, they are not subject to mutation and selection, and therefore cannot evolve. Life, on the other hand, is extremely adapt at reproduction, and requires consumption of energy to maintain its processes. Because life must compete with other life for finite resources, not all will "win" the chance to pass along their genetic material.
However, if a mutation in an organism gives that individual a better chance at survival, or a chance to reproduce more often than before, then that individual has a better chance of passing along that mutation to the next generation. This continues until the mutation spreads throughout the population, and becomes commonplace. Evolution is the combination of random mutation with non-random selection, repeated in all life for eons.
Now, evolution doesn't explain the origin of life, only how complexity can arise in living organisms. The field for finding life's origin is called "abiogenesis," and although we don't have an fully-accepted explanation for this origin, we have plenty of good ideas to explore, and many indications that lead us to believe that it's very possible for life to have arisen spontaneously.
The universe seems to have a natural propensity for finding, maintaining, and recreating stable physical phenomena, whether they be planets, stars, galaxies, or even life itself. Perhaps you can reconcile your faith with this knowledge, maybe saying that the repeated manifestation of these stable patterns demonstrates that the very laws of physics themselves were set up by some outside force to allow these patterns to occur. Don't, however, be tempted to think that this outside force had a direct hand in shaping what we are, as the best we could hope to be are the products of its infinite mathematical and physical wisdom.
Comment by Duane on 23 Aug 2010 at 13:21
Thanks Sam,
Although my previous comment did not make an explicit statement regarding Occam, it employed the same principles, appealing to what I think is the most obvious and the simplest explanation for design, i.e. designers. How anyone can come up with a simpler explanation to design, than a designer, is really the epitome of committed, dyed-in-the-wool evolutionary thinking. So what I am curious about is how the statement, “designs have designers” is defeated by Occam’s razor without front-loading it with naturalism a priori? Further, your explanation for design is far more complicated than mine, so how does Occam eliminate my view, while leaving yours untouched? If we both agree that complexity exists, and the two proposed scenarios by which this complexity came about is (1) an intelligent agent, or (2) evolution by means of mutation and natural selection, how is it the economy of Occam’s razor demonstrated by selecting blind chance over intelligent causation?
Somehow, you’ve come to the conclusion that it must have escaped my attention that houses don’t reproduce (etc) and that this demonstrates a lack of understanding of evolution on my part? The thing is I agree with many of things you’ve said about the complexities of life, reproduction and the crap shoot that is mutation, selection and the struggle for life and death. I agree that the universe contains many amazing things. But none of this provides a better explanation for complexity in the first place. In fact mutation and selection have no creative power whatsoever, as argued by the likes of Michael Behe (Edge of Evolution) and Phillip Johnson (Darwin on Trial):
So I might ask in a similar vein as you did Sam, why muddle the explanation for these things with a phenomenon that cannot be demonstrated (i.e. evolution by mutation and selection), when a simpler demonstrable mechanism can achieve the same ends (i.e. a designer, an intelligent agent)? By this, I am not saying that I personally observed an intelligent agent create the universe and the life within. I am merely saying that based on what we know about things such as cause and effect, the laws of nature, and the ability of intelligent agents by comparison to non-intelligent random events, it is more reasonable to conclude that the complexity to which you refer is best explained by a designer. Occam’s razor works in my favour, not yours.
Comment by Sam on 23 Aug 2010 at 18:21
Duane,
Your explanation is eliminated by Occam's razor because it asserts the existence of a designer, a claim which is unfalsifiable. Further, the power of natural selection has been experimentally confirmed.[1] In fact, the basics of evolution (mutation, combination, and selection) are used as the basis of a whole new class of computer algorithms called "evolutionary algorithms."[2] Clearly, the power of natural selection has been demonstrated quite clearly. Since the evolutionary explanation for complexity does not rely on unfalsifiable claims, and, indeed, many of its claims have been repeatedly verified, I submit that it's a more reasonable one than the designer hypothesis.
References
1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_ev...
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_algorit...
Comment by Duane on 24 Aug 2010 at 04:49
Sam, please. Lenski?
It would be possible to write a computer program to demonstrate how purple monkeys can evolve from washing machines if the person who wrote the code intended it to do exactly that to begin with. First law of computer modelling: garbage in, garbage out.
To your main point, my explanation for design is simply that it implies a designer – nothing more, nothing less. And designers are not exactly the kinds of things that are alien to us. The same basic principle would apply if we found complex machines on Mars without knowing anything about who created them. The mere discovery of the machines would imply that someone created them. As far as I’m concerned, your attempts to defeat this fairly straight-forward point [are] extremely underwhelming.
I guess readers can ultimately decide for themselves. But as far as I can tell, the power of natural selection to create complex systems is continually asserted, not demonstrated.
Comment by Sam on 24 Aug 2010 at 12:24
"It would be possible to write a computer program to demonstrate how purple monkeys can evolve from washing machines if the person who wrote the code intended it to do exactly that to begin with. First law of computer modelling: garbage in, garbage out. "
So? That's not how the simulations you speak of are actually modeled. Computer simulations of evolution do have arbitrary rules for "fitness," so it would be possible to write a program that evolves monkey images into washing machine images if washing machines were used as the example of perfect fitness. The point of these simulations, however, is to demonstrate how repeated cycles of mutation, combination, and selection will, in the long term, lead to a change in the phenotype of the population to become more fit for the environment.
Stop reading and quoting biased sources. You'll notice I haven't quoted anything from Dawkins in this conversation.
"…my explanation for design is simply that it implies a designer…"
But design so obviously *doesn't* require a designer, even outside of biology! Stars, solar systems, and galaxies look "designed," but they are purely the results of the laws of physics. As I said, the laws of physics themselves seem to naturally lead to designed-looking things. This fact is easy to reconcile with your notion of a designer, if you wish, by contemplating that the designer designed the universe's laws such that they would lead to the universe we observe.
"But as far as I can tell, the power of natural selection to create complex systems is continually asserted, not demonstrated."
No, you're just covering your hears shouting "I can't hear you!!1!" whenever someone mentions something contrary to your pre-conceived religious beliefs. It's amazing how much you have to distort your view of reality just to keep it coherent. Even when natural selection is demonstrated, you refuse to accept the evidence. "Lenski? The bacteria didn't 'change,' so it's not evolution!" (Never mind the fact that E. coli have historically been distinguished from other kinds of bacteria by the fact that they grow slowly in the presence of citric acid, yet the Lenski experiment has produced citric-acid-loving E. coli because the environment they were in favored organisms which could digest citric acid.) "Computer simulations? They only do what they're programmed to do!" (Yes, they were programmed to *simulate natural selection and evolution*, and by God, they did alright!) And you still give examples of inanimate, designed objects, ignoring the fact that OF COURSE WE WOULD CONCLUDE THEY WERE DESIGNED, BECAUSE THERE IS NO OTHER MECHANISM WE KNOW OF THE PRODUCE TECHNOLOGY OTHER THAN DESIGN. Life, however, needs no designer, because life is NOT technology.
Comment by Duane on 26 Aug 2010 at 04:41
Sam,
I think you’ve been given sufficient opportunity now to support your original statement, so this will be the final comment on this distraction from the post. You’ll have to reserve any additional straw men, genetic fallacies or misrepresentations of my position for another time.
Sam: “The point of these simulations, however, is to demonstrate how repeated cycles of mutation, combination, and selection will, in the long term, lead to a change in the phenotype of the population to become more fit for the environment.”
Or put another way, repeated cycles of mutation, combination and selection cannot be demonstrated to actually lead to major changes in the phenotype in lab experiments, so we should believe it’s possible on the basis of computer modelling. Whatever floats your boat man, but don’t pretend as though this helps your case by way of Occam.
As it happens, in my industry we use computer modelling to predict the effects of earth faults in a particular environment (the models are tweaked depending on specifics in the environment) and it works quite effectively. So I am not poo-poohing computer simulations per se. I’m poo-poohing Lenski’s model because it does not comport with reality.
“Stop reading and quoting biased sources. You'll notice I haven't quoted anything from Dawkins in this conversation.”
Rejecting an argument or information because of the source is a genetic fallacy. If I were to take your advice seriously, any information supporting evolution that comes from people who already believe evolution is true can be dismissed a priori. Perhaps that’s how you’d like future conversations like this to proceed?
“Stars, solar systems, and galaxies look "designed," but they are purely the results of the laws of physics.”
I thank you for this challenge because I think my position at this point needs further development. However your point is largely moot (i.e. it’s a straw man) because I never claimed that stars, solar systems and galaxies are the kinds of things that:
1. are complex (i.e. show signs of organized complexity, either by the arrangement of parts or by any inherent code that might explain their origin or construction)
2. necessarily survive Occam’s razor in and of themselves
Regarding your last paragraph:
I have never denied that natural selection occurs; another straw man. I deny instead that mutation and natural selection are able to adequately explain complexity in the first place. So it looks like you have to distort or misrepresent my view to keep your objections coherent.
“Life, however, needs no designer, because life is NOT technology.“
I didn’t intend to imply that life is technology. However, living systems are far more complex than man-made technology. So to assert that the former requires no designer in light of what we know about the origin of the latter, is, I think, the ultimate question beg.
Summary
Occam’s razor is not a logical argument, but a pragmatic argument. Eliminating points of view using Occam does not therefore, eliminate the view proper. It merely provides a framework for attempting to discard error via best-fit principles.
Sam claims that the explanation that best fits the evidence for complexity is evolution (i.e. random mutations providing the changes that are selected by nature in a specific environment) over millions of years.
It’s my position that – other than the area under question here – complex systems are always observed to come from an intelligent source. Therefore, a designer of complex living systems is reasonably inferred, and certainly [not] eliminated by some arbitrarily front-loaded naturalistic version of Occam.
Comment by tavarish on 27 Aug 2010 at 06:47
1. Intelligence can create complexity.
2. Life is complex.
3. Life was created by an intelligence.
Do you understand how that isn't a sound argument?