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	<title>Comments on: Pro-Life: Stripping Women of their Rights?</title>
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	<description>Proclaiming the truth of the gospel and the centrality of Christ in all things</description>
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		<title>By: Mathew</title>
		<link>http://aristophrenium.com/mathew/pro-life-stripping-women-of-their-rights/#comment-1062</link>
		<dc:creator>Mathew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Apr 2010 01:21:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aristophrenium.com/?p=1106#comment-1062</guid>
		<description>Readers of this article may also be interested in its predecessor, &lt;a href=&quot;http://aristophrenium.com/mathew/pro-birth-too-painful-to-bring-to-term/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Pro-Birth: too painful to bring to term&lt;/a&gt;, which I also wrote based on this same discussion with @TweeterStranger, albeit that article was confined to an extrapolation of the loaded term &lt;em&gt;pro-birth&lt;/em&gt; only.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Readers of this article may also be interested in its predecessor, <a href="http://aristophrenium.com/mathew/pro-birth-too-painful-to-bring-to-term/" rel="nofollow">Pro-Birth: too painful to bring to term</a>, which I also wrote based on this same discussion with @TweeterStranger, albeit that article was confined to an extrapolation of the loaded term <em>pro-birth</em> only.</p>
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		<title>By: Mathew</title>
		<link>http://aristophrenium.com/mathew/pro-life-stripping-women-of-their-rights/#comment-1061</link>
		<dc:creator>Mathew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Apr 2010 03:38:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aristophrenium.com/?p=1106#comment-1061</guid>
		<description>test comment</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>test comment</p>
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		<title>By: Mathew</title>
		<link>http://aristophrenium.com/mathew/pro-life-stripping-women-of-their-rights/#comment-1060</link>
		<dc:creator>Mathew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Apr 2010 10:54:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aristophrenium.com/?p=1106#comment-1060</guid>
		<description>.. you see the &quot;2&quot; key on your keyboard? It&#039;s right next to the &quot;3&quot; key, so there&#039;s my excuse. At any rate, I&#039;ve corrected my previous comment so *waves hands magically* n e v e r  h a p p e n e d. :P</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>.. you see the &#8220;2&#8243; key on your keyboard? It&#39;s right next to the &#8220;3&#8243; key, so there&#39;s my excuse. At any rate, I&#39;ve corrected my previous comment so *waves hands magically* n e v e r  h a p p e n e d. :P</p>
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		<title>By: Duane</title>
		<link>http://aristophrenium.com/mathew/pro-life-stripping-women-of-their-rights/#comment-1059</link>
		<dc:creator>Duane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Apr 2010 10:26:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aristophrenium.com/?p=1106#comment-1059</guid>
		<description>ah, that&#039;d be footnote #2 I believe&lt;br&gt;:)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ah, that&#39;d be footnote #2 I believe<br />:)</p>
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		<title>By: René Mulder</title>
		<link>http://aristophrenium.com/mathew/pro-life-stripping-women-of-their-rights/#comment-1058</link>
		<dc:creator>René Mulder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Apr 2010 09:48:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aristophrenium.com/?p=1106#comment-1058</guid>
		<description>Ah yes, I see now (its footnote 2 actually). My bad for not reading that :) It&#039;s all clear now.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I&#039;ve managed to locate the article as well as the website that is connected with the organization pulling off the &#039;stunt&#039;.&lt;br&gt;The website does have an English section, but not a full on translated version of all site content, so I&#039;ll do my best to translate the Dutch article as presented on the one newspaper website (said newspaper doesn&#039;t have a very good reputation here).&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Sidenote: when I Googled on the subject I found reports from earlier years as well. It seems this organization has done simmilar &#039;stunts&#039; with sending plastic fetusses in the past, with apparently, good results.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Okay, so this is the link to the Dutch news article: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/6610685/__Duizenden_foetussen_in_Den_Haag__.html?sn=binnenland,buitenland&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Article&lt;/a&gt; (The website itself isn&#039;t always accurate in its reporting, but most of the article is quoted from the organization&#039; s website)&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;And this is the link to the website of organization &#039;Scream for Life&#039; &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.schreeuwomleven.nl/index.php?paginaID=122&amp;archief=archiefstuk&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; the article in question&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;My own translation of the article from the first link:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;Tuesday, April 27, 2010 &#124; The Hage&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&#039;Disgust over fetus-stunt&#039;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;Abortion-doctors are not exactly happy with the new stunt by organisation &#039;Scream for Life&#039;. Chairman Bert Dorenbos is placing 30.000 plastic fetusses on &#039; The Square&#039; in The Hage&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;We want to show that a 10 weak old fetus is already a real child&quot;, he says.&lt;br&gt;&quot;Ethically irresponsible and respectless&quot; is what the doctors call this stunt.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;Dorenbos knows nothing of women who&#039;ve had an abortion&quot;, says doctor Rebecca Gomperts in Sp!ts (a free newspaper). &quot;The majority of them feel relieved and satisfied afterwards&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;It is announced on the website of &#039;Scream for Life&#039; that &quot;30.000 killed unborn children will be placed on the square across the entrance to the Second Board (the board that deals with laws). These children call for right and justice. Their innocent bloed has flown with the law in hand. They scream for life for the hundreds of children who are killed in clinics in hospitals every day.&quot;, says their (the organization&#039;s) website.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Note that I use the word &#039;stunt&#039; for a lack of better term.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;(In case it&#039;s still not clear by now, I am from the Netherlands :) )</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah yes, I see now (its footnote 2 actually). My bad for not reading that :) It&#39;s all clear now.</p>
<p>I&#39;ve managed to locate the article as well as the website that is connected with the organization pulling off the &#39;stunt&#39;.<br />The website does have an English section, but not a full on translated version of all site content, so I&#39;ll do my best to translate the Dutch article as presented on the one newspaper website (said newspaper doesn&#39;t have a very good reputation here).</p>
<p>Sidenote: when I Googled on the subject I found reports from earlier years as well. It seems this organization has done simmilar &#39;stunts&#39; with sending plastic fetusses in the past, with apparently, good results.</p>
<p>Okay, so this is the link to the Dutch news article: <a href="http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/6610685/__Duizenden_foetussen_in_Den_Haag__.html?sn=binnenland,buitenland" rel="nofollow">Article</a> (The website itself isn&#39;t always accurate in its reporting, but most of the article is quoted from the organization&#39; s website)</p>
<p>And this is the link to the website of organization &#39;Scream for Life&#39; <a href="http://www.schreeuwomleven.nl/index.php?paginaID=122&#038;archief=archiefstuk" rel="nofollow"> the article in question</a></p>
<p>My own translation of the article from the first link:</p>
<p>&#8220;Tuesday, April 27, 2010 | The Hage&#8221;</p>
<p>&#39;Disgust over fetus-stunt&#39;</p>
<p>&#8220;Abortion-doctors are not exactly happy with the new stunt by organisation &#39;Scream for Life&#39;. Chairman Bert Dorenbos is placing 30.000 plastic fetusses on &#39; The Square&#39; in The Hage&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;We want to show that a 10 weak old fetus is already a real child&#8221;, he says.<br />&#8220;Ethically irresponsible and respectless&#8221; is what the doctors call this stunt.</p>
<p>&#8220;Dorenbos knows nothing of women who&#39;ve had an abortion&#8221;, says doctor Rebecca Gomperts in Sp!ts (a free newspaper). &#8220;The majority of them feel relieved and satisfied afterwards&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;It is announced on the website of &#39;Scream for Life&#39; that &#8220;30.000 killed unborn children will be placed on the square across the entrance to the Second Board (the board that deals with laws). These children call for right and justice. Their innocent bloed has flown with the law in hand. They scream for life for the hundreds of children who are killed in clinics in hospitals every day.&#8221;, says their (the organization&#39;s) website.&#8221;</p>
<p>Note that I use the word &#39;stunt&#39; for a lack of better term.</p>
<p>(In case it&#39;s still not clear by now, I am from the Netherlands :) )</p>
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		<title>By: Mathew</title>
		<link>http://aristophrenium.com/mathew/pro-life-stripping-women-of-their-rights/#comment-1057</link>
		<dc:creator>Mathew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Apr 2010 08:45:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aristophrenium.com/?p=1106#comment-1057</guid>
		<description>René - it&#039;s very pleasing to hear that the material you&#039;re reading on this blog has been of practical benefit to you. Thank you for letting us know - it is a great encouragement to us. It is one of the reasons that the four of us write.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;Altough adding &#039;innocent&#039; may appeal to emotion, while it should appeal to justice. That may just be my interpretation, so let&#039;s just leave it as it is and go with &#039;innocent&#039;.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Did you read my footn0te #3 above? I think I sort of address this in that note. Let me know if not and I&#039;ll be happy to clarify.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;I can&#039;t find the article about it anymore, but I think that was the gist of it. I&#039;m curious what will come out of it :)&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Two things: 1) it&#039;d be great if you could locate the article - I&#039;d be interested in reading it; 2) from which country do you herald?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>René &#8211; it&#39;s very pleasing to hear that the material you&#39;re reading on this blog has been of practical benefit to you. Thank you for letting us know &#8211; it is a great encouragement to us. It is one of the reasons that the four of us write.</p>
<p>&#8220;Altough adding &#39;innocent&#39; may appeal to emotion, while it should appeal to justice. That may just be my interpretation, so let&#39;s just leave it as it is and go with &#39;innocent&#39;.&#8221;</p>
<p>Did you read my footn0te #3 above? I think I sort of address this in that note. Let me know if not and I&#39;ll be happy to clarify.</p>
<p>&#8220;I can&#39;t find the article about it anymore, but I think that was the gist of it. I&#39;m curious what will come out of it :)&#8221;</p>
<p>Two things: 1) it&#39;d be great if you could locate the article &#8211; I&#39;d be interested in reading it; 2) from which country do you herald?</p>
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		<title>By: René Mulder</title>
		<link>http://aristophrenium.com/mathew/pro-life-stripping-women-of-their-rights/#comment-1056</link>
		<dc:creator>René Mulder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Apr 2010 08:30:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aristophrenium.com/?p=1106#comment-1056</guid>
		<description>&quot;Perhaps we could state it this way: is it permissible to kill an innocent human being to alleviate a mother&#039;s burden?&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;This would indeed be a better way to state it I think. :) Altough adding &#039;innocent&#039; may appeal to emotion, while it should appeal to justice. That may just be my interpretation, so let&#039;s just leave it as it is and go with &#039;innocent&#039; &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I&#039;m also glad that I started thinking more about this issue. I didn&#039;t think it was much of an issue in my country anymore these days (I am not at all informed on our laws), but I read an online newspaper the other day and read that it is indeed still a &#039;hot topic&#039; in my country as well.&lt;br&gt;(You would not want to read the comments on that article. They&#039;re terribly misinformed and hateful!)&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I ran into an old acquintance the other day as well, and we had a long conversation about religion, philosophy etc. and abortion also came up.&lt;br&gt;While we didn&#039;t exactly argue about it, I was glad to be at least somewhat informed now, thanks to you guys and what I&#039;ve read here.&lt;br&gt;The entire conversation was very relaxed and respectful, and I was reaffirmed in my own faith by the way it went.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Finally: I think today a Christian political party in my country is going to plant some 30.000 plastic fetusses (feti?) in the political capitol as a means to demonstrate against, I&#039;m guessing current, abortion laws.&lt;br&gt;I can&#039;t find the article about it anymore, but I think that was the gist of it. I&#039;m curious what will come out of it :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Perhaps we could state it this way: is it permissible to kill an innocent human being to alleviate a mother&#39;s burden?&#8221;</p>
<p>This would indeed be a better way to state it I think. :) Altough adding &#39;innocent&#39; may appeal to emotion, while it should appeal to justice. That may just be my interpretation, so let&#39;s just leave it as it is and go with &#39;innocent&#39; </p>
<p>I&#39;m also glad that I started thinking more about this issue. I didn&#39;t think it was much of an issue in my country anymore these days (I am not at all informed on our laws), but I read an online newspaper the other day and read that it is indeed still a &#39;hot topic&#39; in my country as well.<br />(You would not want to read the comments on that article. They&#39;re terribly misinformed and hateful!)</p>
<p>I ran into an old acquintance the other day as well, and we had a long conversation about religion, philosophy etc. and abortion also came up.<br />While we didn&#39;t exactly argue about it, I was glad to be at least somewhat informed now, thanks to you guys and what I&#39;ve read here.<br />The entire conversation was very relaxed and respectful, and I was reaffirmed in my own faith by the way it went.</p>
<p>Finally: I think today a Christian political party in my country is going to plant some 30.000 plastic fetusses (feti?) in the political capitol as a means to demonstrate against, I&#39;m guessing current, abortion laws.<br />I can&#39;t find the article about it anymore, but I think that was the gist of it. I&#39;m curious what will come out of it :)</p>
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		<title>By: Mathew</title>
		<link>http://aristophrenium.com/mathew/pro-life-stripping-women-of-their-rights/#comment-1052</link>
		<dc:creator>Mathew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Apr 2010 03:35:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aristophrenium.com/?p=1106#comment-1052</guid>
		<description>Ah, indeed he did. I stand corrected.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, indeed he did. I stand corrected.</p>
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		<title>By: Duane</title>
		<link>http://aristophrenium.com/mathew/pro-life-stripping-women-of-their-rights/#comment-1051</link>
		<dc:creator>Duane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Apr 2010 03:09:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aristophrenium.com/?p=1106#comment-1051</guid>
		<description>Mathew: &quot;I disagree with a portion of this&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Unless by &quot;ultimately&quot;, Rene is referring to the final place in the Kingdom for those who are adopted children of God?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mathew: &#8220;I disagree with a portion of this&#8221;</p>
<p>Unless by &#8220;ultimately&#8221;, Rene is referring to the final place in the Kingdom for those who are adopted children of God?</p>
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		<title>By: Mathew</title>
		<link>http://aristophrenium.com/mathew/pro-life-stripping-women-of-their-rights/#comment-1048</link>
		<dc:creator>Mathew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Apr 2010 02:27:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aristophrenium.com/?p=1106#comment-1048</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re thinking through the issues quite well, Rene. A few thoughts re: your last comments: &quot;But technically, the goal of abortion is not to punish the criminal (rapist), and I think it isn&#039;t good reasoning to present it as if it is.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I agree with you: the goal of abortion is not to punish the rapist - that&#039;s an absurd notion. But it&#039;s clear that abortion does punish someone: the unborn. What&#039;s more, the punishment is a death sentence. That&#039;s the point that is being conveyed. As an aside, what do you think the goal of abortion is for the pro-choicer? And do you think any of their responses provide sufficient reason for the killing of an innocent unborn human being?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Perhaps we could state it this way: is it permissible to kill an innocent human being to alleviate a mother&#039;s burden?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;I guess what I&#039;m saying, in short, is that I don&#039;t think we should see abortion as punishing the unborn baby for a crime, but rather as what it is: ending the life of a human being. PERIOD&lt;br&gt;Seeing how the end result (death) is what the argument is ultimatly about, not the reason behind it (abortion).&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Bingo. You don&#039;t know how delighted I am to hear you say that. That is precisely what the issue of abortion is about. If people claim it&#039;s not, they must either: 1) demonstrate how the unborn are not human beings; 2) demonstrate why unborn human beings ought to have no rights to life. On the latter, simply trumpeting &quot;my body, my choice&quot; is not sufficient.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;Review each case of unwanted pregnancy, evaluate if the mother is fit to care for the child at all, or not. And act accordingly: if she can, monitor the mother for a certain amount of years, give aid etc etc. If not, somehow adopt the child and place it in a healthy environment where it can still have a &#039;normal&#039; life.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Right. And this is what institutions like Crisis Pregnancy Centres do and do well, free of charge. JohnOneOne, who commented earlier, is actively involved in such institutions and can tell you more of the work and benefits they provide to mothers than I can.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;In the end, we are all adopted children of God. It doesn&#039;t matter ultimately if a child grows up with its original parents or not. And of course, the core of the problem is still sin.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I disagree with a portion of this: God designed the family to be structured in a particular manner. When that structure is not present (or is dysfunctional), it causes problems for society. That God adopts us as children is of course true - and while in this life, accepting that offer of adoption does ease the burden of sinful consequences (but does not necessarily take them away) of a fallen world, but in a fallen world we still remain until we are gathered up by Christ Himself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#39;re thinking through the issues quite well, Rene. A few thoughts re: your last comments: &#8220;But technically, the goal of abortion is not to punish the criminal (rapist), and I think it isn&#39;t good reasoning to present it as if it is.&#8221;</p>
<p>I agree with you: the goal of abortion is not to punish the rapist &#8211; that&#39;s an absurd notion. But it&#39;s clear that abortion does punish someone: the unborn. What&#39;s more, the punishment is a death sentence. That&#39;s the point that is being conveyed. As an aside, what do you think the goal of abortion is for the pro-choicer? And do you think any of their responses provide sufficient reason for the killing of an innocent unborn human being?</p>
<p>Perhaps we could state it this way: is it permissible to kill an innocent human being to alleviate a mother&#39;s burden?</p>
<p>&#8220;I guess what I&#39;m saying, in short, is that I don&#39;t think we should see abortion as punishing the unborn baby for a crime, but rather as what it is: ending the life of a human being. PERIOD<br />Seeing how the end result (death) is what the argument is ultimatly about, not the reason behind it (abortion).&#8221;</p>
<p>Bingo. You don&#39;t know how delighted I am to hear you say that. That is precisely what the issue of abortion is about. If people claim it&#39;s not, they must either: 1) demonstrate how the unborn are not human beings; 2) demonstrate why unborn human beings ought to have no rights to life. On the latter, simply trumpeting &#8220;my body, my choice&#8221; is not sufficient.</p>
<p>&#8220;Review each case of unwanted pregnancy, evaluate if the mother is fit to care for the child at all, or not. And act accordingly: if she can, monitor the mother for a certain amount of years, give aid etc etc. If not, somehow adopt the child and place it in a healthy environment where it can still have a &#39;normal&#39; life.&#8221;</p>
<p>Right. And this is what institutions like Crisis Pregnancy Centres do and do well, free of charge. JohnOneOne, who commented earlier, is actively involved in such institutions and can tell you more of the work and benefits they provide to mothers than I can.</p>
<p>&#8220;In the end, we are all adopted children of God. It doesn&#39;t matter ultimately if a child grows up with its original parents or not. And of course, the core of the problem is still sin.&#8221;</p>
<p>I disagree with a portion of this: God designed the family to be structured in a particular manner. When that structure is not present (or is dysfunctional), it causes problems for society. That God adopts us as children is of course true &#8211; and while in this life, accepting that offer of adoption does ease the burden of sinful consequences (but does not necessarily take them away) of a fallen world, but in a fallen world we still remain until we are gathered up by Christ Himself.</p>
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